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Morality

May 23, 2013

Dear editor: Today I read Mr. Bob Holland’s L-T-E with profound interest because I share many of Bob’s concerns. I however want to approach these concerns from a slightly different angle....

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(39)

MTOMTO

May-31-13 3:01 PM

Never, glad you saw the humor.

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BrookP

May-31-13 2:45 PM

Haha, don't burn me at the stake!

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MTOMTO

May-31-13 11:44 AM

"The simple evidence that the world is round instead of flat"

Herassy!

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BrookP

May-31-13 10:38 AM

Rancor, so true! Truth thrives on new evidence and change. The simple evidence that the world is round instead of flat created truth/fact and changed much. We now had a new, verifiable truth and understanding of our world. Keep the new evidence and truths coming! It's all amazing.

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Rancor

May-31-13 9:43 AM

...and another thing:

Backwoods stated: "Nothing I can say will change the mind of an un-believer"

While that statement may be true, most rational people (including myself) are willing to change what they accept as truth based on evidence supplied.

I say "most" as many religious (not just christian) people -and institutions- have a hard time accepting things even when faced with a plethora of evidence.

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Rancor

May-31-13 9:37 AM

Backwoods: Postulates 3 and 4 (the ones you chose to ignore) are no more hypothetical than 1 or 2. All 4 points are to be taken as a whole. Only 1 of them can be correct.

You can supply no consistent, verifiable evidence for the existence of your deity so you cannot claim truth.

Also; you sent this letter in an open, public forum: if your intended audience is specifically christian, than you should have sent it via a christian forum.

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Backwoods

May-30-13 4:33 PM

BP – I answered Rancor’s points 1 and 2 (you need to read my post again), his points 3 and 4 are hypothetical and not worth wasting time on. Nothing I can say will change the mind of an un-believer and that is why I addressed this letter strictly to those professing to be believers.

Years ago I had a friend with a very strong background in law enforcement. We talked a lot about the validly of the bible which he questioned. I ask him to investigate the bible from a legal not religious point of view. He spent many hours over several years at a computer but it gave him a new and interesting point of view.

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BrookP

May-30-13 2:40 PM

I'm connected to my fellow humans. So, I'm hardly bankrupt in that department.

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BrookP

May-30-13 2:39 PM

archaeo1, to address you comment about spirituality, there is no exact definition of the word. Dictionaries list several themes or association of the word, but it's meaning is different for everyone. Since your comment referenced a god of my understanding, I assume you mean spirituality in a higher-being sort of way. If that is what you meant, then I have no spirituality by that definition. I suppose if you had to label me, I'd come closest to a secular humanist. I have faith in the human race to learn, adapt, and overcome the challenges of life. The idea of a higher-being/creator watching over us is an unreasonable concept to me. There is no credible argument to believe that. The universe is facinating and science seeks to explain it to us. Our understanding of the world has increased astronomically since the world's major religions were created. Can you imagine what our decendents of 200 years from now will know? This is my spirituality. (continued)

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BrookP

May-30-13 2:27 PM

archaeo1, I do let people believe what they want, but that doesn't doesn't stop my curiosity about why they believe what they believe. Rancor had a question with specific point to be address. They were not. In my experience, this is typical of many religious people. When faced with direct, pointed questions, they become vague and avoid answering, directly. I'm not radical, or violent about it, but I am challenging when someone such as backwoods suggests that I'm a fool for not believe. I can pose the same thought for the believer. Humans have been making up gods for hundreds of thousands of years to explain that which they don't understand. This baffles me because if I don't understand something, such as our origins, I'm ok with that until science figures it out. Answers could be centuries away and I'm ok with that. I'd rather wait for the credible, verifiable truth than to make up an answer.

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archaeo1

May-29-13 2:42 PM

Brooke, Let people believe as they choose. If you are devoid of religious beliefs that's 0.k. I do hope you at least have some spirituality or something because following you could lead to spiritual bankruptcy.... Just my feedback and I don't do organized religion.MAY the GOD of YOUR understanding bless YOU.

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Rancor

May-29-13 10:10 AM

Backwoods:First; I believe the word I used was unjust not unfair.

Second; I never claimed your god was just, exactly the opposite, actually.

Third; pretending your particular brand of mythology is real, then your deity is not worthy of my worship and should be treated with the same discourse as Hitler or Stalin unless it atones for thousands of years of torture, hate mongering, murder,and IMMORALITY.

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Backwoods

May-29-13 9:52 AM

BP - if you have read psalm 14:1 and know what it says???? you just proclaimed it. It is your God given right of "free will" to choose weather you want to believe or not.

Now I'll say it once more, in this letter I was not addressing you who do not believe, only those who are professing to believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and died for our sins. How many times do I have to say I was not addressing those of your belief!!!

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BrookP

May-29-13 9:40 AM

Backwoods, no I practice a good life without the need for religion. I choose to be a good person in my interactions with others, as I would want them to treat me the same way. So, as you can see, Pslams 14:1 is an incorrect statement. You can be good without a god.

Oh, and you still avoided the direct points from Rancor's question, although it was actually directed to stonewall.

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Backwoods

May-29-13 6:47 AM

So Brookp you are one of those that believe in and practice Psalms 14:1. This letter was not written to those of your belief, but to those who profess to believe in Christ. You just don't get it.

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BrookP

May-28-13 11:01 PM

Backwoods, you didn't answer the question, or chose to avoid its logic.

Also, I was not given that conscience that tells me a god exists. On the contrary, I have one that says no god exists, that it is fantasy.

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Backwoods

May-28-13 6:32 PM

4 However, the Christian God is not fair, since He chooses to save those who accept His mercy;

5 Those who want to experience the fairness of God will receive just that - God will judge them fairly. For the rest of us, who prefer mercy to fairness, God will save us, whether we be Hindus, Buddhists or whatever.6 Those who haven't heard the gospel will be judged on the basis of the information they were given and how they responded to it.7 It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out whether or not you are doing what your conscience tells you to do.

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Backwoods

May-28-13 6:32 PM

The first assumption - that the Christian God is fair - is false! Wait a minute - a Christian admitting that the Christian God is unfair! Yes, you can quote me on it as long as you quote the rest of this paragraph. God created human beings with conscience that 1) tells them when they do wrong and 2) tells them that God exists. When we violate our conscience (something that all human beings have done), we know that we have sinned. Christianity says that all have sinned;

1 and, therefore, fall under the judgment of God; 2 In order to be fair, God must judge all sin;

3 Therefore, in order to be fair, God should condemn all people to h*ll;

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Rancor

May-28-13 4:04 PM

stonewall: What happens to those that were actually never told about christianity? There are only four options that I can figure:

1. The christian god punishes them. In which case it is indeed an unjust god and unworthy of my worship.

2. The christian god gives them a pass. In which case not telling me would do me a favor and you should keep it to yourself.

3. The christian god does not exist, however a different god is in charge. In which case we would be forced to follow their particular rules for reward/punishment

4. There is no god. In which case your threat of judgment is no different than a hippy threatening to send bad vibes your way.... somewhat impotent.

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st0newa11

May-27-13 9:10 PM

Believe what you want. But one day when you stand before your maker in judgment, you will NOT be able to use the excuse, "I was never told."

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BrookP

May-27-13 12:10 PM

Or, we could decide for ourselves how 21st century earth is run instead of letting unsophisticated men from a 2000 year old culture tell us what to do. That sounds much more appealing to me.

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Backwoods

May-24-13 6:46 AM

Fivealive – you are correct, neither is acceptable. Although the scriptures do say one can seek a divorce in the case of adultery.

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fivealive

May-23-13 8:29 PM

If the argument is that gay marriage is about the political and economic benefits of a legal union, then does it not also apply that divorce to end a heterosexual legal union is also for political and economic benefits? Why is it okay for the advantages of divorce to be acceptable but not the advantages of a legal gay union? (Especially when both are supposedly contrary to Christian principles.)

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Uncle5

May-23-13 7:50 PM

Backwoods, I can agree with that idea. I DO get it. We elect representatives because of who they profess to be and what they promise to do, and we hope they follow through on their promise. And I applaud your call to them to be moral people. Beyond that, it is tempting to think things will be even better if they bring their religious morals to aid in government - or vice versa - but as I think Madison said, it will corrupt both. You are not advocating that, I know, but I don't want to slowly trade away this great experiment in democracy, for a creeping theocracy. There are plenty of examples of why not: Iran, the Holy Roman Empire, Hirohito's Japan, the Anglican kings, and on and on. I am just here watching that wall Jefferson wanted us to keep an eye on.

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Backwoods

May-23-13 6:11 PM

Uncle5, I in NO way am implying that lawmakers should pass laws based on religion. What I am implying is that if a person (lawmaker or voter) goes against their professed beliefs (what ever they might be) they are acting in hypocritical manor. It happens to be that in this letter I am addressing those people professing to be Christians, but I guess you just don’t get it.

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